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 *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*

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David Harvey

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:07 am

They didnt publish it ha ha. Funny first time I have bought the FT since it was the norm, a previous life.
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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:32 am

good letter David.
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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:32 am

Come on Dave, you know the score... 'Never let the facts get in the way of a good story...' Smile

May appear on another day though, you never know?


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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:29 pm

At least 2 other letters on FT.com on this subject in the past few days, all subscription-only unfortunately, but Google's "cache" can work around that problem:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Aft.com+%22Thames+Water+is+not+the+beneficiary%22
Quote :
November 8, 2012
Thames Water is not the beneficiary

From Sir Peter Mason. Sir, London is not alone as a major international city with a legacy Victorian sewer system that has ...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=site%3Aft.com+%22Happy+dace+are+here+again%3F%22
Quote :
November 8, 2012
Happy dace are here again?

From Mr Roger Gill. Sir, “Abundant fish life in the Thames” (Letters, November 7). Happy dace are here again? Roger Gill, Cradley, Herefordshire, UK ...

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:58 pm

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:27 pm

Result Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:07 pm

good work fellas a reward for your hard work
Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:26 pm

Good work Dave!


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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:42 pm

A cautionary note from Martin Read concerning the Thames Tunnel;

"Anglers in the SE may not be aware but Sheffield built an intercepter tunnel way back in the early 1990's. The reasons were exactly the same as those for your [Thames] tunnel , an old outdated, mismash of drains and 'legal overflows' that kept the Don polluted on a regular basis.

The intercepter sewer collected the waste from all those and delivered it to a modernised Sewage Treatment Works (STW) east of Sheffield. Within a year the quality of the river improved dramatically, and this saw the return of fish to the river after a period of 150 years. Without it we would be in the same old mess.

But one word of warning, in 2006 it did let us down. Extremely localised and very heavy rain following a long dry spell overloaded the system bringing with it a massive pollution which killed tens of thousands of fish in a 10 mile stretch of the river. The moral is tunnels are great, but with modern weather make sure that the delivery point at the end can handle much, much more than normally expected.


Martin"




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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:27 pm

surely its better to be let down once in blue moon, than to be let down every other week like we currently are, isn`t it??

obviously to never be let down again would be better still....
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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:46 pm

Brian Woolsey wrote:
surely its better to be let down once in blue moon, than to be let down every other week like we currently are, isn`t it??

obviously to never be let down again would be better still....

I suppose this is the key Martin, certainly when we discuss the capability of the Tunnel with Thames Water, if/when it is given the go ahead;


Martin Read wrote:
The moral is tunnels are great, but with modern weather make sure that the delivery point at the end can handle much, much more than normally expected.


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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:17 pm

Brian Woolsey wrote:
surely its better to be let down once in blue moon, than to be let down every other week like we currently are, isn`t it??

obviously to never be let down again would be better still....

Even if the sewage works at Becton is overloaded occasionally, the Thames in that area has a much greater volume/flow so the environmental damage should be much less than in the middle of London, hopefully......... Question
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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:19 pm

I've dug up some information on the "Blackburn Meadows" sewage treatment works the Don Valley interceptor sewer, and the July 2006 pollution incident.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackburn_Meadows
https://bibliotecadigital.ipb.pt/bitstream/10198/1421/1/Int.%20J%20Water%20.PDF
http://www.coastms.co.uk/resource/2027/retrieve

wikipedia wrote:
By the 1960s, the Sheffield sewers were inadequate for the volume of effluent, and overflowed into the river during periods of light rainfall and sometimes when there was no rainfall. Some of them had been in use for 80 years, and inspection revealed that major reconstruction was required. The solution adopted was to tunnel the Don Valley Interceptor Sewer through the Carboniferous rock beneath the existing sewers. Work began of the first phase in 1979, when 1.33 miles (2.14 km) of 18-foot (5.5 m) tunnel were built from the works to a drop shaft in Hawke Street. A new pumping station was required at Blackburn Meadows, and this phase was completed in July 1983. Over the next decade, four further phases were completed, involving the tunnelling of 1.39 miles (2.24 km) of sewer with a diameter of 12 feet (3.7 m) to a drop shaft near Furnival Road, a new sewer from Furnival Road to the Whitbread Brewery with another from the Sheaf Valley sewer to the central bus station, extension of the Don Valley sewer to Gilpin Street, and finally extension from Gilpin Street to Livesey Street in Hillsborough. As a result of this work, the capacity of the sewers was greatly increased, and 26 storm sewage overflows were closed, resulting in significant improvement to water quality in the river.

"Our" tunnel is going to be quite a lot bigger than that. My understanding is that it is big enough to store the excess until the sewage works can treat it. The contents can hardly overflow anywhere either, it will be 30m underground. Fingers crossed!

thamestunnelconsultation.co.uk wrote:
The Thames Tunnel is proposed to be 7.2 metres in diameter, about 67 metres deep and our preferred route is approximately 25 kilometres (15.5 miles) long – making it one of the largest and deepest tunnels under London.

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:26 am

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:16 pm

Brilliant, just pasting the comments here in case they get taken down by the H&F ministry of truth:

Quote :
I am a resident along the riverwalk where Thames Water intend to build this monstrosity and am disappointed that Thames Water would choose this site which will only cause disruption when this sewer tunnel could be built in Barn Elms and not disrupt anyone living or their quality of life.
From JazzJ on 22/11/2012 at 17:13


To Hammersmith Council:
Of course we understand why Surface Urban Drainage Systems are the long-term, ecologically-sound, simple drainage solution: just keep the rainwater on site. Simple! But we are facing a crisis because of the accelerating construction boom of the last 100 years in London. We need the extra capacity to store water in the sewerage system offered by the Thames Tunnel AS WELL AS Suds.
It is not "either" Suds "or" the Tunnel. It has to be BOTH.
Now do you understand?
From Una Hodgkins on 21/11/2012 at 10:56


@George
Bazalgette's sewers were a great 19th century solution to the problems London faced at the time. However, we are now in the 21st century and technology has moved on. Sewage entering the Thames occasionally is a symptom of a different problem. i.e. when it rains very heavily the rainwater flows into Bazalgette's combined (rainwater + sewage) sewers and overloads the system triggering the overflow into the river. Forward looking cities stop this fresh water getting into the system in the first place via SUDS (see explantion in the story above) which can also help alleviate droughts if the water is stored for use on gardens/to wash cars etc. Thames Water's concrete tunnel will simply pump the combined water + sewage out east to be separated out again. It is a backward looking, costly and disruptive 19th century solution.
From H&F Council on 21/11/2012 at 10:13


@SamDifeld
The council does not recognise your description of the River Thames as a 'gigantic raw sewer'. Thames Water tries to frighten people by saying that 39 million tonnes of "raw sewage" gets into the Thames each year. What they don't mention is that that world experts in water management estimate that only 1-5% of the run-off is sewage. The rest is rainwater. Very few people realise that the River Thames is, in fact, one of cleanest inner city rivers in the world. In 2010 the river scooped the International Theiss River Prize, which honoured the Thames for its recovery from a biologically dead river in the 1950s to today's thriving waterway. At the award ceremony it was said that the Thames is so clean that salmon, otter and sea trout can be found and the number of fish are increasing, with 125 different species recorded. So the question remains. Should monopoly operator Thames Water be allowed to charge all of its customers �80 a year extra for life, on top of current bills, to turn residents lives upside down around Carnwath Road? Or, should we instead pursue the sensible, greener alternatives that can make the river cleaner with far less disruption and far less cost?
From H&F Council on 21/11/2012 at 10:01


I thank H&F for the link to the Philadelphia video & SUDS. At last I understand the alternative proposal to the Thames Water Sewer (a project which is based on the exact same engineering and waste management systems that we have so admired for the last century and were so brilliantly conceived by Joseph Bazalgette).
SUDS would have us deal with our rainwater in one of the planet's most densely populated cities (7.5 mil btw.) Philidelphia is a toy town by comparison) by planting gardens in school playgrounds and putting wooden flower boxes at the end of our rainwater pipes.
There is nothing wrong with encouraging green measures. On the contrary, money should go there too of course - but can we grow up here please? The problem is far too large and acute to be dealt with by SUDS. Watch the H&F suggested video and see if you think it's not just pie in the sky.
Essentially the Thames is a gigantic raw sewer and it's time we got on with a solidly conceived engineering project to deal with it cleanly & efficiently.
Why can we never just get on with things in the UK?
3rd runways v. estuary airports.
TGV rail now 20 years late.
Let's just BUILD IT!
And I'm a CARNWATH rd resident!
From Sam Difeld on 20/11/2012 at 21:11


The council's coverage of the Thames Tunnel is an absolute joke, it reads like a tabloid. I wonder if the council would like us to have resisted Bazalgette's sewer of the eighteen hundreds that saved thousands of lives and improved living conditions in London for millions.
From George on 20/11/2012 at 20:34


Sorry but I can't believe that H&F can really be so silly on this issue.

They are not arguing properly, surely the argument should be to use a green field site (Barn Elms) over Carnwarth Rd. But of course they can't do that as for the last however long, it has always been brownfield over greenfield.

The problem is that we need a solution that works and this is the most beneficial. Yes it will make TW money in the long term but what did we think would happen when we privatised our utility companies?

Also if you companre TW water rates they are cheaper than nearly everywhere else in the country and they say that the extra money will only bring them in line to other companies. With this pledge being made in its leaflets this is what we should be holding them to over the next 15 to 20 years.
Will hammersmith
From SALMON on 20/11/2012 at 11:10


@SamDifeld
We are not being unfair. No one is saying that the river could not be a bit cleaner but Thames Water has a vested interest in pushing through the scheme which makes its shareholders the most money. Many world experts are lining up to say that SUDS (Sustainable Urban Drainage Solutions) is likely to be the answer. Watch this film: http://cleanthames.org/solutions/solutions-mid-term/
From H&F Council on 19/11/2012 at 17:44


H&F being thoroughly unfair. Let's hear how they propose to deal with almost 40 million tons of raw sewage overflow, annually. This is a Thames Water film but even as A Carnwath Road resident, I feel it is more balanced than H&F council.
WATCH THIS FILM http://vimeo.com/34897999
From Sam Difeld on 19/11/2012 at 17:15


The Council's relentless campaigning against an essential piece of "plumbing" for London is as inacurate as ever. Thames Water is owned by shadowy private equity owners who are of course currently likely to benefit from capital spending. Thames Water Utilities Ltd (the operating company) has been stripped of its profits by its owners over the years and saddled with huge debts (�8bn!). As a result TW needs government guarantees to back this essential project. The real culprits are the private equity owners. It is more complicated than Hammersmith Council makes out!
From Una Hodgkins on 19/11/2012 at 16:58


Why the use of the emotive term "stink-pipe"?

Surely it's your job to give us an impartial view of what's going on so we can make our own informed judgement?

I have no idea whether or not this project is a sound idea, but when the opposition sounds like a Sun headline writer it suggests to me they're using emotion to get around the lack of a sound argument.
From Ciaran on 17/11/2012 at 09:42


It is clear that the only party Thames Water will help is itself, i.e. its shareholders, at the expense of its customers. Thanks to H&F Council for continuing the fight against this unsuitable plan.
From ALaw on 16/11/2012 at 18:39


It will be soon time to think about a payment boycott of our water bills unless they accept to reimburse the exact loss of value for every homeowner in the Borough caused by their project.
From Patgar on 16/11/2012 at 16:51


Yet more council scaremongering. Extraordinary that taxpayers money is being spent fighting this eminently sensible project.

In essence this article can be condensed to: "It won''t take long anywya - but if you live nearby, really need to move, and find it hard to get a price that is acceptable, Thames Water will help."
From JamesW on 16/11/2012 at 16:12

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:16 pm

H&F... Laughing


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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:54 am

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:15 pm

Interesting, havn't had any sewage discharge notification emails for Hammersmith this week, think the system is manual and occasionally goes on the blink.
http://sdn.rivertac.org/
http://csoalerts.blogspot.co.uk/

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:20 pm

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:04 am

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:30 am

From : http://www.waterbriefing.org/index.php/home/regulation-and-legislation/item/6829-new-development-could-scupper-thames-water-%E2%80%98supersewer%E2%80%99-plans


New development could scupper Thames Water ‘supersewer’ plans

Hammersmith & Fulham Council is on a collision course with Thames Water after it approved plans to build hundreds of new riverside homes at a site earmarked by the utility for its Tideway Tunnel.

Thames Water wants a construction site at Carnwath Road, Fulham but last night the planning committee at H & F Council signalled their support for 475 new riverside homes, new offices, shops and leisure facilities as part of a regeneration scheme for the area.

The Thames Tideway Tunnel has backing from the Government and last year the Secretary of State for Local Government Eric Pickles took the step of safeguarding land for the project. Mr Pickles will now have to decide whether the plans for a new riverside community in south Fulham trump Thames Water’s plans for a construction site there.

Plans for the housing development, from Fulham Riverside West Partnerships, have broad community support as well as being backed by the Prince’s Foundation.

Thames Water has faced growing pressure in recent weeks from opponents who believe there are greener ways of stopping millions of tonnes of sewage being released into the Thames, as well as growing concern over costs of the supersewer scheme.

H & F Council has suggested Thames Water moves construction to an uninhabited site in Barn Elms, which Thames had originally chosen but changed its mind.

Councillor Nicholas Botterill, H&F Council Leader, said:

“Now that these excellent plans to create a vibrant new riverside community, including much needed new homes, have got the green light from the council it is Thames Water’s duty to back off.

“Thames Water needs to find an alternative site for their unnecessary stink-pipe or, better still, ditch their costly white elephant all together. Experts have repeatedly highlighted the cheaper, less disruptive and greener ways to clean up the river and Thames Water should now admit that their concrete tunnel plan is a dead duck.”

Thames Water is expected to lodge its application for the Tideway Tunnel to the Planning Inspectorate in the next few weeks.
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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:15 pm

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:42 pm

Lord Berkeley, would he be any relation of Lady Dido Berkeley?

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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:43 am

Yep
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PostSubject: Re: *Thames Tunnel (Tideway Tunnel)*   Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:25 pm

13 February 2013

Detailed plans for the construction of London’s proposed ‘Supersewer’, developed by Thames Water, will be delivered to the Planning Inspectorate on 28 February 2013.

The company has today confirmed that is the date it will submit its 50,000 page Development Consent application for the project, urgently required to help tackle discharges of untreated sewage to the tidal River Thames.
Within 28 days the Inspectorate will decide whether the application is a valid one, including for example whether the consultation undertaken was adequate.

If accepted, all the application documents will appear in their own section of the Planning Inspectorate’s National Infrastructure website. Thames Water will also make them available for scrutiny at six public locations, to be announced next month, along the tunnel’s proposed route, three either side of the river.

Phil Stride, Head of Thames Tideway Tunnel at Thames Water, said:
“Following a thorough process of public consultation, which started back in September 2010, we have now finalised a highly detailed document, explaining how the project’s delivery will be managed.

“It’s the result of many months of work by the team to ensure the application addresses all the relevant legal and technical issues.”
If the Inspectorate accepts the application is a valid one, it will appoint an Examining Authority of up to five inspectors to consider any matters arising. As part of this process, interested parties will be able to make representations.
A Preliminary Meeting, open to those who have registered an interest, is expected to take place in early September 2013. Chaired by the Inspectorate, this will determine how the examination will be carried out. This will include consideration of more detailed hearings on site specific matters, as well as project-wide issues.

Once the Planning Inspectorate has concluded its examination of the application, a recommendation on whether or not to grant approval (by issuing a Development Consent Order) will be submitted to Government ministers to make the final decision. This is expected in Autumn 2014.

If consent is granted, preparatory construction work on the project is scheduled to start in 2015, with main tunnelling due to begin in 2016. The target completion date is 2023.

The Thames Tideway Tunnel proposals require a number of construction sites, from Acton in the west to Abbey Mills Pumping Station in Stratford in the east. There the 15-mile tunnel, the deepest and longest ever constructed in the capital, would join up with the Lee Tunnel, already under construction.

Along with separate work also under way to expand the capacity of the five sewage treatment works on the tidal River Thames, the tunnels’ purpose is to tackle the 39 million tonnes of untreated sewage that currently overflows into tidal stretches of the river in a typical year, when the capital’s Victorian sewerage network fills to capacity, sometimes after just 2mm of rainfall.

The tunnels will convey the excess sewage for processing to stringent standards at Beckton Sewage Treatment Works, with green energy being generated from the resulting sludge, before the treated water is returned to the River Thames.
All three schemes are needed to ensure the UK meets the requirements of the EU Urban Waste Water Treatment Directive.

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